Tuesday, July 26, 2011

The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.

Greek Orthodox Church prepares for a new day. Antill Street, South Hobart. July 2011.

Cripes, I forgot again! I am going to recycle something that I wrote in a previous comments page just to stir up the possums...

It concerns the outrage that many have with regards to the issue of gay couples having children. Now, my opinion on the matter is that too many people attach far too much significance on the concept of ‘natural’, which seems to me itself an incredibly subjective and contestable idea rather than some immutable scientific ‘fact’.

Yet let us not get too sidetracked on that point. My belief is essentially one that assumes the only acceptable or correct equation in this area is "man + woman = parents" is wrong. Moreover, it is such a simplistic notion that barely seems worth arguing about. Surely anybody with any experience in the world much have collected by now innumerable examples of how the "man + woman = nothing like a parent (should be)".

For me - if we are talking about the issue of ANYBODY wanting to have and raise children - the following formula is more useful than the above equation:

i) Do they want it?

ii) Can they look after it? And,

iii) are they of sound character?

The rest is mere detail.


jess said...

kris, i would assert that your formula should (in a perfect world) apply to any person/people considering having a child. not just same sex couples - although the logic applies equally there.

Kris said...

As do I. Obviously such a formula is easier to apply when some kind of intervention - bureaucratic or otherwise - is required (i.e. adoption, IVF, sperm donor, surrogacy etc) than it is in the heady world of people mixing together.

I should amend that second-last para...

jess said...

i assumed (how forward of me!) you would think that as a general concept but just checkin' :)

clearly when there is government regulation involved, you need policy principles which you have formulated succinctly. perhaps you could forward them to the relevant authorities ;)

jess said...

a friend of mine and her husband (ie straight) are looking into domestic and international adoption at the moment. she is diabetic so it is both difficult and dangerous to try it 'naturally'. she was telling me about some of the outrageous questions asked and parameters imposed, one being 'are you a christian (go to church)?'. what a ridiculous criteria for a good parent. one word - and not to sound insensitive - norway.

Roddy said...

Well said. And may I say that there are a lot of people out there that shouldn't breath, let alone breed. Good parent? Bad parent? My view is man and woman parent that is all.

jess said...

and i could say my view is that people like you roddy should get in a time machine and go back to the middle ages! (sorry kris, i know it says no abuse - i'm not abusing but making a point).

you are completely out of touch with modern society, mr roddy. the fact is that gay parents exist and they're doing a pretty damned good job in my experience. do you even know any gay people and/or parents to form such a view? are you open with them about your views about how they deserve all the rights in the world except to raise children? please tell me your actual rationale for why gay parents shouldn't have children. and why heterosexual infertile couples aren't allowed to have IVF either. in fact please do tell me about your prejudice against IVF (+surrogacy, adoption, articificial insemination) altogether given it exists purely to assist those who cannot conceive 'naturally'!

Kris said...

Roddy, so a single parent isn't a parent or capable of being a parent? That's rather silly.

Roddy said...

Kris, I didn't say that.
And yes IVF for the right reasons. For married/heterosexual people/persons.
Tell me I am old school if you wish. I was born in an entirely different era, thus my view.
Man and Woman! Not woman and test tube/ Man and test tube.
And yes I work in an industry full of homosexuals, and yes they are aware of my views. Their problem if they disagree!
If I have upset you...Sorry!!!
This is still my opinion!

jess said...

my last statement on this matter - mainly because there's no sense carrying on a one sided conversation with someone who insists it's because 'i said so'.

you haven't upset me at all with your opinion, rod. all what you say does is confirm my experience (not opinion, experience) of people suffering varying degrees of homophobia, and that experience is that they have no rational basis, facts or justification for their 'opinion'. i appreciate you grew up in a different era but it doesn't mean you have to remain stuck in that era.

i have been fortunate enough to see a huge amount of positive change in gay rights, tolerance & acceptance and end to government sanctioned discrimination in my lifetime, and we're not quite at the end point. this very change indicates that your opinion is becoming fast outdated. society and knowledge changes - this is a fact - otherwise we'd still be living in caves rubbing sticks together to make fire.

is it your gay work colleagues' problem that your 'opinion' purports to relegate them to second class citizens? not at all, the gay community will continue to thrive in this country with or without your approval!

Kris said...

Roddy, with all due respect, you DID say that (a single parent isn't a parent or capable of being a parent). Your definition of parent involves a [heterosexual] "Man and Woman". Without getting bogged down in the issue of how one's sexual preference (or indeed their preference for flavour of ice cream, car manufacturer or football team) in any way relates to their capacity to give care to a child, I struggle to see how you could possibly maintain a position that say that you need "one man plus one woman" to raise a child.

Do you not know of anyone who has managed to raise children without the support of a partner? Partners die and partners piss off and I don't see anyone claiming that some poor bugger left alone is somehow incapable of raising a child. I am sure that you can think of someone who might be infinitely better off without the input of a disinterested/ inadequate father or mother.

Roddy said...

Death and desertion aren't the point in question. It is how the hell you get the kids. Rape, pillage, conquest! I still have my opinion. Welcome to the real world. There are naysayers everywhere.
Thank Christ we are no longer in the nineteenth century. Or earlier!